Thursday, June 29, 2006

The evacuation continues...

Hot off the wire:

EDMONTON—Scratch Radek Dvorak from the list of players who will be back in an Edmonton Oilers uniform.

Agent Ritch Winter has told the Oilers the winger has no interest in returning next NHL season. He will be among those players available on Saturday when free agency begins.

“I won’t say why. He just has no interest in returning,” Winter said. “He would like to pursue other opportunities.”


Ah, well. Can't say this breaks my heart. Also, I wonder which female Edmonton reporter this one will get blamed on.

39 comments:

Matt said...

You know what's funny? In about 6 weeks, Sacamano gets to learn about all this shit at once.

Swabbubba said...

Now that is rich. Does he have a strong heart or should we take out a policy?

mike w said...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

RiversQ said...

Thank heavens there are a lot of decent ES forwards available as UFAs. One might fall to the Oilers if they so desire.

Dennis said...

I started off hating this guy because I was a Carter fan. And after watching RD for a few games I imagined he sold his soul to the devil for taht 30 goal season and I wouldn't be shocked if he never scores 20 in a season again. I mean the guy has zero hands. It's unreal.

BUT...he works like a dog and does an excellent job with tough min and can kill penalties. I'd have no idea why he soured on the Oilers...it wasn't too long ago that Lowe was talking about him as a true Oiler. Seems to be a long way to fall doesn't it?

I would've wanted him back because he was probably gonna come for cheap.

But remember the 18 guys goalie out who played a couple of Monday's ago and the turnover is gonna be just unreal. Something could be rotten with this organization. I mean RD seems like standup guy and these comments from Winter are akin to "I wouldn't go back to that place if they fucking paid me...like a guy that could score;)"


Seriously...this is gonna be interested come opening night

mudcrutch79 said...

Keep in mind that Winter is a fucking douchebag. That said, I'd like to know what's up with Dvorak. Peca, Pronger, Dvorak...the list is growing boys, the list is growing. It's so hard to know whether these guys are such pinheads that this should be ignored or what, but it's definitely troubling.

Anonymous said...

I feel sick to my stomach like a newlywed getting asked for a divorce on his honeymoon. What must be done to have a team next season that some what resembles the last one??

RiversQ said...

One thing is certain - You know that Oilers dressing room we hear about all the time? It ain't all sunshine and lollipops like we're led to believe.

The image that I've always had was Staios on guitar, Smyth with the jew's harp, Moreau on the spoons, Gator coaxing eerie ethereal sounds out of the hacksaw and Pronger keeping a train beat with the washboard. Pisani, Dvorak and Peca probably chimed in with some backing "woo-woos" and foot stomping. No real vocals - it was just a groove, baby. Turns out that wasn't the case.

They had issues this time. Along those lines I thought they seemed uber-professional from the SJ series on. They closed out games in a cold blooded fashion and only ever talked about the next game. Almost mercenary-like. It turns out that was just the dressing room seeping out onto the ice.

Anonymous said...

like when its closing time and the fat chick blows you off.
just maybe its you.

Anonymous said...

and Dennis: i was out east for the thirty goal season and he scored more goals off his shin pads then anyone before or since. He has feet for hands and always will have. Still, one ugly piss off in our summer of discontent.

Anonymous said...

Geez, was their rink built on a cursed toxic waste dump? This exodus is unreal.

Colby Cosh said...

Sheesh. We're talking about three guys (two of whom weren't necessarily welcome back and who were rightly ripped for their play) and it's the eve of free-agency day. Pronger broke my heart and shoved the pieces up my ass, but I don't understand why people are panicking about the roster as a whole. I'll start worrying when Horcoff or Hemsky starts bitching.

Black Dog Hates Skunks said...

I agree completely with Cosh.

The whole Pronger thing is a disaster.

But, we knew Peca wasn't going to be back. We knew that six months ago. Someone is going to overpay him in term and cash based on his playoff run and past results. I like the guy but he is almost done.

And Dvorak - get serious. My bet is Winter called Lowe and Lowe said our offer is half of what he made last year.

He works hard, he kills penalties and he's great defensively. So he's Pisani. Except he scored fourteen less playoff goals.

Lowe told Winter what his offer was and they got all pissy. If Dvo can get 1.6M somewhere else, good for him. If he can get 1M somewhere else, good for him.

He's replaceable. He's a role player. A good role player but a role player nonetheless.

Its like they always say - when they say its not about the money its about one thing - the money.

lowetide said...

The only concern I would have is the "Boston Bruins 05" concern where they had to do so many things in a short space they got zero done and were left signing mid-level talents to big time deals.

Lowe has:

1. More of a base to start.
2. As many as 4 forwards from the farm/junior/Russia that could reasonably challenge for spots.
3. A major trading chip in Pronger.

Remember folks we signed zero ufa's last season and went to SCF.

Lowe could deal Pronger, play those 4 forwards, get them 400ab's and deal one or two at the deadline for another Cup run.

Having said that, there is an article to be written (I nominate Vic) adding up:

1. MacT's contract thing
2. Pronger's trade request
3. The Peca/Dvorak comments

Vic, you could go in several directions:

1. MacT a mean, mean man?
2. Oilers make players drink own piss?
3. Edmonton players forced to live in low-rentals?
4. Was Comrie right?

Just a thought. :-)

Anonymous said...

You want Dvorak? Sign Koltsov from the Penguins, who was not qualified. He's faster with worse hands.

Dennis said...

Heading into '07 I was thinking that if we lost RD then a guy like Langenbrunner might think this was a chance at another Cup and he'd sign here for a year or two. But now it's hard to imagine anyone will want to come here unless it's for a vast overpay.

The Oilers of '06 aren't going forward trying to win anything. It's gonna be a different crew

RiversQ said...

Black Dog Hates Skunks said...
He works hard, he kills penalties and he's great defensively. So he's Pisani. Except he scored fourteen less playoff goals.


Here are some facts: Dvorak plays more minutes than Pisani - ie. MacT prefers him over Pisani at ES (yeah, playoffs too). He plays against equivalent or better quality of opposition. He gets similar GA results. He normally outperforms Pisani in terms of ESP/hr.

And yet everybody wants to back up the Brinks truck to Pisani's door while Dvorak should be ecstatic with $800K/yr? That completely defies logic.

One more thing - anybody that is willing to pay an extra $1MM/yr for a guy who's had one 14 goal/24 game playoff stretch should strap on the dunce cap right now. Lionize Pisani all you want, but doing it at Dvorak's expense is just plain silly.

Anonymous said...

Who ARE we going to get for a Pronger trade? Ottawa just signed Redden to a two-year deal. ...

Black Dog Hates Skunks said...

Riversq - that's fair enough - I'm not a stats guy for sure but I do think (and apparently the Oilers do to) that Pisani puts up bigger numbers next year and the year after that as well.

I guess we'll see but my guess is Lowe pays Pisani 2M a year and also that Pisani earns it - ie/ produces

And maybe that is the wrong comparison to make but honestly Dvorak is a role player - he is a good player and a valuable player but he's a dime a dozen player as well as far as I am concerned.

That's my opinion and you can give me stats that tell me I am completely wrong (I guess you just did) but the guy is a third/fourth line guy imo. I mean, score a goal already.

Kyle Kosior said...

As a guy who was actually asked for a divorce on his honeymoon, this one feels much worse.

I have a lot of faith in Lowe, but for a team that was once thought to be very tight knit, this doesnt look too good to an outsider.

I still think the players leaving are replaceable, but not sure if that translates into us competing at a high level next year. Perhaps they will need some time to gel?

Anonymous said...

@riversq

Right, the fact RD gets all that ice time with stone hands should be ignored? That Stoll and Samsonov were generally brought down by playing with him? Sometimes it is about scoring goals. Dvorak doesn't. Look at his defensive numbers all you want. Somehow the Oil shut down the Sharks without this defensive specialist. Now, I'll support him as a 3rd or 4th liner. And that means taking a pay cut.

To put it another way, it can't be that difficult to find someone with speed but stone hands. The defence part? That can be taught. The scoring part? Not so much.

How 'bout a third way. With all the young guys knocking on the door, and with all the UFAs out there, you're saying noone could replace RD's minutes? Give your head a shake.

On the other hand, Pisani did something that's more difficult to replace. That's not to say he gets the moon. Course not. But there's no way they can't offer him RD's money. With the dividends he already paid out, the home town angle, everyone else fleeing the team, etc. Add 'em all up, and Fernando gets a big raise. He deserves it.

To say otherwise...well, as someone so ready to hand out the dunce cap, at least you know where to find it.

- Rod

Randy in the Med Hizzo said...

There's a few advantages to Pisani, not the least of which is that he's a local boy made good.
They've been thrown some curveballs, but I still maintain that the Lowe et al haven't adjusted to the new NHL realities.
As a guy who predicted that the Oilers wouldn't make the playoffs and Lowe would be fired by next Christmas... I honestly didn't expect a Stanley Cup to be jammed in there.

Paul O-the O stands for Sports said...

Part of it could be Pisani is seen as a "young thirty" whose best years are ahead and Dvo is an old 29, whose best years lay behind. Or it could just be the karma that the Oil will get from havign Pisani there. Start him every home game just for the ovation, play "Fernando" everytime he socres just to have the crowd sing along. By the end of the playoffs, Fernando is probably the city's favourite Oiler, while very few give two shits about Dvo.

Paul O-the O stands for Sports said...

Thoroughly off topic, but the Lightning just acquired Denis for Modin and a goalie prospect who probably will never play. If that's all it took, you're telling me Lowe couldn't have stepped in and made the deal for him? It's not like Rolie is going to resign.

Black Dog Hates Skunks said...

Paul O - According to Duhatschek Oilers' brass think that the playoff Pisani is the real Pisani, so to speak, not the RS 18 goal man

He's going to get his.

RiversQ said...

Anonymous Rod said...
@riversq
Right, the fact RD gets all that ice time with stone hands should be ignored? That Stoll and Samsonov were generally brought down by playing with him?

No, the fact that RD gets all that icetime is a positive for him. Unless you contend that MacT was trying to submarine his team all year. And in the playoffs. Good luck with that.

Where on Earth did you get the notion that Stoll and Samsonov were being dragged down by Dvorak? That's pure fantasy. They didn't need any help and Dvorak sure wasn't hurting them.

To put it another way, it can't be that difficult to find someone with speed but stone hands. The defence part? That can be taught. The scoring part? Not so much.

How 'bout a third way. With all the young guys knocking on the door, and with all the UFAs out there, you're saying noone could replace RD's minutes? Give your head a shake.


Do it then, Rod. Find me his replacement at $800K or $1MM. You know that fast guy that you can teach defense to and already has hands? The one that's going to get results this season against decent opposition? You know that guy? Shake your own head.

On the other hand, Pisani did something that's more difficult to replace.

That something is far more difficult to replicate as well. It's impossible to expect that Pisani can do that again.

To say otherwise...well, as someone so ready to hand out the dunce cap, at least you know where to find it.

- Rod


I guess I can just snatch it off your head, right?

Black Dog Hates Skunks said...

RiversQ - two questions - what would you say Dvorak is worth and who are comparable players by your metric?

Educate me - and I'm not being a smartass when I say that, beleive me, I respect your POV - I want you to tell me who are compaprable players so I have a frame of reference, please

Anonymous said...

@riversq
>>No, the fact that RD gets all that icetime is a positive for him. Unless you contend that MacT was trying to submarine his team all year. And in the playoffs. Good luck with that.<<
That just means MacT didn't have many options on RW last year. There's no reason to be stuck in the same boat again. The guy simply can't score.

>>Where on Earth did you get the notion that Stoll and Samsonov were being dragged down by Dvorak? That's pure fantasy. They didn't need any help and Dvorak sure wasn't hurting them.<<
Uh, let's see...how did he bring them down? Did RD finish once the entire playoffs? You know, light the lamp? They were the second line for crying out loud, and he didn't score once. Unlike, say, Winchester. Or Peterson.

Secondly, Samsonov looked great on when lined up with Peca and Pisani. That only lasted a few games until Torres came back from the flu.

>>Do it then, Rod. Find me his replacement at $800K or $1MM. You know that fast guy that you can teach defense to and already has hands? The one that's going to get results this season against decent opposition?<<
That's the point. That's not RD either. He has no hands. Period. There's a lot of guys that can skate, and they can be taught defense. The Oil were loaded with that type of player for years, and how you're saying they can't find anybody like that?

>>That something is far more difficult to replicate as well. It's impossible to expect that Pisani can do that again.<<
Nobody says Pisani will definitely score 14 in a playoff run again. Even half that is SEVEN better than RD. Like I said before, he's already earned the pay raise. Funny how you left that part out...

>>I guess I can just snatch it off your head, right?<<

Nope. I'm not the one saying RD has hands... He's 3rd line at best. Preferably 4th. Dunce cap is all yours...

- Rod

Anonymous said...

Rod, RD put up better EVPTS/hr than some pretty damn good players this year and MacT was throwing him up against some big names.

Answer me this, how does a guy with no hands get results like this year after year??

Ian

mudcrutch79 said...

Shamelessly stolen from mc79hockey.com:

"Cult favourite Dvorak put up 1.73ESP/ 60 this season. Notables who put up points at a worse rate include Edmonton whipping boy Doug Weight, the loathsome Rod Brind'Amour, Canadian Olympian Shane Doan, Dollar Bill Guerin, scratch golfer Jarome Iginla and Ray Whitney. Most entertainingly, not a single Flame forward scored at a better rate. He's not a PP scorer but he strikes me as being worth having around. If the major complaint is his offence-and it is-and he didn't fall off the map despite having a bad year offensively, why wouldn't you want him back at a cut rate price?"

Anonymous said...

He doesn't score. He leaves that to the other guys. Never said he couldn't pass... Never said he shouldn't be back at a cut rate... RD is suited to the 3rd line at best. @riversq said it was crazy to ask RD for a pay cut. Said giving a raise to Pisani at RD's expense was worthy of a dunce cap. Sorry, but Pisani earned his raise. RD, cut rate, 4th line, maybe 3rd, might be worth it...

That EVPTS/hr stat is nice and all, but how about any consideration for physical play? This isn't baseball guys. There is contact out there. That stat is far from the whole story, but if you want to keep RD solely because of it, whatever. We don't win the first round, nevermind the second and third without physical play.

Again, somehow we beat San Jose quite handily after RD went down. Shouldn't have been possible based on RD, and his EVPTS/hr, being out...

- Rod

Anonymous said...

Another angle...one they're making on TotalSports is that this piling on Edmonton is getting ridiculous. Winter saying that RD has no interest in coming back. What a joke. How 'bout that 1.6m is too much for a 3rd or 4th line guy. That the Oil wanted to pay him as a 3rd/4th liner.

Both Bob Stauffer and Mark Spector said they'd have RD on their team at ~750,000 or 800,000 because he's fast, and he works hard. But there's no sense paying him 2nd line money. And that's my point. A pay cut for RD is reasonable. riversq says otherwise, and he's entitled to that opinion...

- Rod

Colby Cosh said...

"Cult favourite Dvorak put up 1.73ESP/ 60 this season. Notables who put up points at a worse rate include [A BUNCH OF GUYS WHO WERE EITHER AS OLD AS THE SUN, SURROUNDED BY FIRE HYDRANTS, OR BOTH]."

Black Dog Hates Skunks said...

Once again, I'm with Cosh. Twice in one thread.

Seriously Mudcrutch, you and I are going to have to get together for a pint or ten and you can give me a seminar on all of your stats. I can get on board with a lot of it especially as it applies to overall team performance.

And Guerin and Weight, maybe even Whitney, yeesh.

But if that number is supposed to convince me that Dvorak is comparable to Iginla, Doan or even Brindamour in some way, man, I am missing something.

I'm dumb.

But am I that dumb?

Don't answer that!

RiversQ said...

Rod: I never said that Dvorak wasn't going to get a pay cut. He likely will, but I don't confuse his salary with his results. Obviously the two do not march in lock step with one another - especially pre-CBA contracts. My point is that Dvorak's value is very similar to Pisani's. I also do not believe that a small sample of playoff games changes the fact that they have similar value.

Cosh: Tyler picked out the ones with the wow factor there, but there are many others. Go have a look yourself.

mudcrutch79 said...

But if that number is supposed to convince me that Dvorak is comparable to Iginla, Doan or even Brindamour in some way, man, I am missing something.

I'm spitballing here, really. I'd think that we can all agree that the context matters, as Cosh points out. That said, Rod Brind'Amour just got $18MM over 5 years despite being as old as the sun and playing with better offensive players than Dvorak for lots parts of the year. Bill Guerin plays on a better offensive team. Jarome Iginla is supposed to be one of the best players in the world - I don't care what type of horseshit players he's playing with. Gretzky went to the fucking Kings and made things happen.

I'm not claiming to have the answers on this particular point or to know what it means. I just find it amazing that RD apparently isn't good enough offensively to play for the Oilers while many of these fuckos are even worse offensively at ES, and pull down way more scratch. Can someone please explain this shit to me? I seriously do not understand it.

He doesn't score. He leaves that to the other guys. Never said he couldn't pass...

Well fuck Rod, who cares then? If the puck goes in the net when he's on the ice at a sufficient rate, does it really matter how it gets there?

Said giving a raise to Pisani at RD's expense was worthy of a dunce cap. Sorry, but Pisani earned his raise.

Out of curiosity, are you even reading these posts? RQ's point is that everyone is wetting themselves about Pisani's clutch playoff performance but the idea that he's earned his raise because he happened to get hot at an opportune moment is absurd. Pisani will never have something like that happen again. Pay him for what he can do in the future, not what he did in the past.

That EVPTS/hr stat is nice and all, but how about any consideration for physical play? This isn't baseball guys. There is contact out there. That stat is far from the whole story, but if you want to keep RD solely because of it, whatever. We don't win the first round, nevermind the second and third without physical play.

If Radek keeps the puck in the other team's end, that's fine with me. I don't even care if he hits anyone all night long.

Again, somehow we beat San Jose quite handily after RD went down. Shouldn't have been possible based on RD, and his EVPTS/hr, being out...

We beat Detroit despite being an inferior team. Shit happens. As it so happened, SJ being a two line team meant that the Oilers were able to lose a good player and it hurt less.

Randy n the Pisani said...

Which Pisani is the Real Pisani, Pisani? Jackie Treehorn wants the Deadbeat Pisani. Pisani!

Doogie2K said...

Scoring rates taken out of context will only get you so far. He's still a defensive forward, and those guys remain underrated in the NHL. He'll sign somewhere else, alright, but I doubt it'll be much more than $1M.

Black Dog Hates Skunks said...

The thing is about Pisani is that the Oilers think that the playoff Pisani is the real Pisani.

During the final Eric Duhatschek had a column on Pisani and in it stated that Oiler brass felt that Pisani was only now coming into his own offensively.

First of all I would say Duhatschek is pretty reliable.

Secondly if Oiler brass were saying this on the record prior to having to negotiate a contract with the guy I would say that they honestly feel this.


So RQ and Mudcrutch, you guys are both right. They are paying him not based on the fact that he had 14 playoff goals (although I am sure he got a bump for that) but because they feel his future performance is going to be worth the money they are paying him.